[idea]Revamp Trees

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Re: [idea]Revamp Trees

Postby smithforge » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:06 pm

Here's a teaser for the new tree farming (still in 0.60a tho):

http://youtu.be/ryCr5kuadTM

There are some problems that causes me to up all acorn spawn rate 10x (compared to how often base game's tree spawn bush)
The reason is that now chopped trees no longer magically regenerate and need acorns to replant. If acorns takes too long to spawn, tree farming will take a ridiculous long time. I am considering making farmed and park trees spawn acorns even faster (they are "safe" as the acorns they spawn don't auto-grow into new trees like the wild version)

Since the tree-chopping action is adapted from another tool-based mod I was playing around with, it requires an woodaxe (and the number of woodaxe indirectly controls the max number of people cutting trees) which I had to grudgingly put in an action to create "free" woodaxes for convenience.

I think I complicate lumbering enough that it will put off a lot of people who just want their wood fast and easy... lol
smithforge
 
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Re: [idea]Revamp Trees

Postby Stechi » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:09 pm

As I read this thread,
I got an idea,
but now i didn't test the mod, but i will.

First i think one problem could be, if you have little tree farms,
and you chop too frequently you are running out fast of acorns to replant.

But the solution I think of would also be more realistic:
Just make several steps of tree chopping:
First chop the tree (change the graphics to a fallen tree; nothing happens)
then you could get a cutting (not forced)
and then you could do multiple stages,
where you get one log until the tree is knocked down.

To manage the "not forced" cutting,
you could make the cutting-action tagged as gathering
and the log-getting-action as chopping.

So possible actions:
Planted tree (chop -->fallen tree)
Fallen tree (get cutting --> stage1; get log -->stage2)
Stage 1 (get log --> stage2)
Stage 2 (get log --> stage3)
...

I hope you get my idea.

Greetings
Stechi
Stechi
 
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Re: [idea]Revamp Trees

Postby smithforge » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:34 pm

Stechi wrote:As I read this thread,
I got an idea,
but now i didn't test the mod, but i will.

First i think one problem could be, if you have little tree farms,
and you chop too frequently you are running out fast of acorns to replant.

But the solution I think of would also be more realistic:
Just make several steps of tree chopping:
First chop the tree (change the graphics to a fallen tree; nothing happens)
then you could get a cutting (not forced)
and then you could do multiple stages,
where you get one log until the tree is knocked down.

To manage the "not forced" cutting,
you could make the cutting-action tagged as gathering
and the log-getting-action as chopping.

So possible actions:
Planted tree (chop -->fallen tree)
Fallen tree (get cutting --> stage1; get log -->stage2)
Stage 1 (get log --> stage2)
Stage 2 (get log --> stage3)
...

I hope you get my idea.

Greetings
Stechi


Actually, I don't quite get your idea in the post. Do you mean increasing the logs produced per tree (E.g. cutting down 1 tree to yield more than 1 log?)
If that is the case, I have considered it, but did not put it into the current test (I think I did mention somewhere of older trees that yields more than 1 log). To make 1 "tree chop" serve more than 1 unit of wood, I am thinking (in another mod design) of processing wood into multiple beams or boards, and these can then be used to build the other stuff, so effectively, this does similar things as the multi-log per tree idea.

Currently, I am not making a lot of effort to balanced though. I have this struggle with making wood too fast and cheap (am I the only one getting the feeling that wood in the game is the cheapest 'free" resource). Thus, I don't want to make wood too difficult to get, but also want to avoid the "strange"(?) situation where a tiny tree farm can effectively supply 100s of wood in a day.

As for creating a sustainable tree farm, there is a way to make it automatable. The way is to designate at least a few "park" trees, which are not cut down by automated jobs and do not die or spawn new wild trees on it own. When these are grown, they will produce acorns at regular intervals. In fact, if the acorn addon in my oak mod is included, a separate oak farm (using "park" trees) can be setup not to provide wood, but to provide acorns which can be a food source or ground into flour to be used in baking.

Of course, another way is to simply set automatic collection of acorns from wild trees when the number of acorns drop too low. For example, in my test, I set the auto-production of acorns from FARMED/PARK trees to 50, but I set collect acorns from any tree (including wild ones) to 5. So when I have more than 5 acorns, acorns will only be collected from the farmed and park trees. But if it ever drops below 5 acorns, citizens will collect a few from the wild to ensure that there are always some acorns available.

But one gameplay feature I realised by testing is that: it is not feasible to assume that a small tree farm can support a large demand for wood. My mod may increase the size of tree farms required (which to me isn't exactly a bad point and forces the player to think a little more about land usage)

If you actually tried my oak test mod, do post feedback (in either thread, though may be good to just keep 1 thread for combined discussion). There are tonnes of things regarding balance that can be tweaked, which will probably need a lot of testing and feedback. But more importantly, I want to see how people find the changed tree growth/farming(includes chopping and replanting) systems. If people don't like it, there will be reasons. These reasons will be the materials for potential improvements. If people like some parts, then it may be feasible to extend similar designs to other in-game entities.

My personal aim is to hopefully play a game where plants behave more like plants and animals behave more like animals and we can get a better illusion that the map is "alive". Thus a lot of experiments ... or voodoo if that is the correct community term, here and there...
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Re: [idea]Revamp Trees

Postby Stechi » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:49 am

No, my idea was just the multiple chop-stages, for more realism (I didn't looked at the mod at all, and didn't know it was already implemented.^^)
and the option to make cuttings.^^

The multiple log-thingy was just to extend the chop-stages-idea.^^

And yeah the park trees are one option to get acorns,
but you could adjust the spawnrate of farm oak to be the same as the wild oaks
and if you need more oaks you have to make cuttings.^^

And if you reduce the spawn rate, you could also go with the multiple log idea (at least 2 logs)
without risking to unbalance the balancing.^^

Greets
Stechi
Stechi
 
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Re: [idea]Revamp Trees

Postby smithforge » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:09 am

agreed with most. And you got many of the things that are in my design. The mod I put up is a simplified version for testing, but it has most of the bells and whistles in place. For example, spawning of acorns for the oak is one thing but whether the acorn will become another tree is another thing. Farmed and Park versions acorns will never grow into trees by themselves. For wild acorns, only 5% of seeds will actually take root and only if they are on suitable terrain (grass type terrain). I increased the spawning of acorns so that it doesn't become so rare that tree farming becomes infeasible, but decrease the chance of seeding to offset the overall growth rate. still, since I did not play for many game days, I keep the overall growth and spawn rate similar to the original wild trees.

There ARE other fun stuff on my hand which are not released atm though. e.g. the lifecycle of treesleepers. Wild trees will die (maxAge to nothing) after a long time. But in my design, I'm thinking of making them having a chance to become sentient instead of dying (i.e. have a low chance of old wild trees become treesleepers after reaching max mage). What can be more fun can be like when tree sleepers are activated, if they do not die unnaturally within a period of time, they will sleep again, with a chance of becoming normal tree OR remain as a tree sleeper. (I am thinking higher chance of becoming normal tree). What will happen is that in a large wild forest, some trees will secretly become sleeping treesleepers which may become normal trees again after a long time, while awakened sleepers will eventually going back to sleep as either a normal tree or still remain as a treesleeper. It will make wild forest .. well.. wild.. ;) But I try to keep these "fantasy" mods separate from the "realistic" ones...

For additional fun, I actually make a dousing rods that enable player/citizens to detect sleepers... (for modders, just script a "dowsing rods" item with an action that causes a citizen to pick up the dowsing rod and move to the item being searched and end the action there. the citizen will drop the dowsing rod next to the searched item which will give hint where the searched item is). Well, it's sort of cheating... but kind fun (actually, I just need it for debugging sometimes, after I try to camouflage tree sleepers until they are indistinguishable from normal trees)
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