Towns Overhauled 0.81

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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby smithforge » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:07 pm

since priorities was mentioned, I had this concern: having more priorities does allow us to control the order of jobs being performed better, but I have this feeling that I need to frequently manually change the priority ordering, to get workaround some odd cases. Ideally, there could be some balanced system where I don't really need to touch the priorities menu except in very special circumstances.

One other thing I am experimenting more with is indirect job control via adding tool requirements.
e.g. By making tree chopping requiring a woodaxe, the total number of tree-choppers at a time is limited to the number of woodaxe lying around. (lock up the rest). Same thing with harvesting. Say Wheat harvest requires a scythe, so total number of citizens that can harvest wheat is limited. This could hopefully prevent the case where all citizens neglect jobs of lower priority and just rush to do the higher priority ones, when what we really need is some balanced production with a little preference for certain jobs over others.

unfortunately, I haven;t got to the stage where a real mod is made to test this idea beyond theory. But if Jack or anybody else has tried similar things, do share your findings (can try to improve the system through discussion/debate)

btw, I DO recommend a special "TOP" priority which is always kept as highest on the list meant for some special player orders. (e.g. I improved my MoveIt Mod to use a TOP priority so that when I order a stupid stone blocking my construction to be moved away, it will be moved away almost immediately). As a counter part, a "BOTTOM" priority always at the bottom of the list could be useful for some tasks that we only want idle citizens to perform. I expect that these two special "system-level" priorities will be useful especially for some voodoo stuff... ;)
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby JackPS9 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:19 pm

Atoning Unifex wrote:
JackPS9 wrote:Workbenchconstruction = the utilities
Furnitureconstruction = the furniture
Decorative = the deco items (not counting badgers, which I'll be putting under foodmaking/butcher seeing how it creates bones)
Wallconstruction = Walls/Doors/Windows

what would item construction stuff go under? or should I just leave item construction in?


Yeah i never considerd workbenches just = utilities menu. I went through the items file and edited each one i came to so never really considered what menu it sat in.

I think with furniture and deco i made the distinction between stuff that gave happiness and stuff that didn't, actually, but i'm not certain. Oh and i just remembered, most, or all, of the vanity stuff i put into decoration too. Your call really!! Maybe go with a different split of having indoors and outdoors, or just combine them if you don't see any need for the two.

Foodmaking and butchering i combined as it seemed sensible to do so. Gathering is separate because that doesn't require a workbench - but you could combine that into food too i guess.

Item construction i got rid of. It's totally not descriptive, might have well as said "Stuff construction". I split out things to various other areas. Tongues, torches & bone carving knife went into workbench construction. The bottles & poison bottles went into military (to go alongside traps as that's whatthey are used for).

Burining i kept separate grudgingly. Seems a bit of a waste to have it in its own category but it can be time consuming if you have a lot to burn so was best left apart from everything else. Unless you combine it with hauling maybe?


Burning I may add more items to later on, like the low Basic Axe (Though it will create flint)

I put the stone hammer under military cause it is a weapon, but also a tool.
Item Construction I will slowly get rid of over time.
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby JackPS9 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:33 pm

smithforge wrote:since priorities was mentioned, I had this concern: having more priorities does allow us to control the order of jobs being performed better, but I have this feeling that I need to frequently manually change the priority ordering, to get workaround some odd cases. Ideally, there could be some balanced system where I don't really need to touch the priorities menu except in very special circumstances.

One other thing I am experimenting more with is indirect job control via adding tool requirements.
e.g. By making tree chopping requiring a woodaxe, the total number of tree-choppers at a time is limited to the number of woodaxe lying around. (lock up the rest). Same thing with harvesting. Say Wheat harvest requires a scythe, so total number of citizens that can harvest wheat is limited. This could hopefully prevent the case where all citizens neglect jobs of lower priority and just rush to do the higher priority ones, when what we really need is some balanced production with a little preference for certain jobs over others.

unfortunately, I haven;t got to the stage where a real mod is made to test this idea beyond theory. But if Jack or anybody else has tried similar things, do share your findings (can try to improve the system through discussion/debate)

btw, I DO recommend a special "TOP" priority which is always kept as highest on the list meant for some special player orders. (e.g. I improved my MoveIt Mod to use a TOP priority so that when I order a stupid stone blocking my construction to be moved away, it will be moved away almost immediately). As a counter part, a "BOTTOM" priority always at the bottom of the list could be useful for some tasks that we only want idle citizens to perform. I expect that these two special "system-level" priorities will be useful especially for some voodoo stuff... ;)


I already have axes for the tree chopping in this mod and I have to say it works really well.

So far the requiring a tool to do a job, helps out ALOT! I'm talking it stops all your townies from doing the same action. Which in general helps out your production of goods, like equipment or food.
Though it sorta removes the whole idea of the priority system for the most part cause if they cant get the item to chop a tree or a sickle/scythe for havesting wheat then it forces them into the next action.



I still have to re-work all the wait times for this mod though.
I WILL WARN PEOPLE THOUGH. Carpentry Benchs DONT MASS THEM AT THE START!
They have a total time of 600
Plus side though, better your tech level = better faster tools to make the lower stuff quicker.
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby smithforge » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:55 pm

here's another production idea what I am formalizing which you may find some use for:

unmanned delayed production.

I came up with this as I am trying to see how mud-bricks (and a variant called adobe brick) can be produced in game (esp as a replacement material for maps with have little trees. I am considering banishing palms from growing on sand. It should grow on regular fertile grounds like oasis instead).

Basically, the simplified version of real-life mud-bricks production is to mix sand, mud, clay, water and some organic component: straw, grain husk or even manure. The brick form is done with molds (probably wood) and can either be baked in a kiln or sun-baked (in hot land). In both cases, there can be some sort of delay between the start of baking to when the brick are ready. The citizen is only required to start the process and to gather the finished bricks. The bricks baking in kiln or drying under the sun can just be a item with a fixed maxAge that will transform into the completed one (and thus trigger citizens to remove the finished bricks). Of course, kilns are faster, but requires fuel. sun-baking does not require fuel but is slower and requires strong sun (maybe the baking field can only be designated on sand terrain). We can also make better kilns at higher tech level with shorter "baking" time which makes it a reason for players to pursue or upgrade tech. (e.g. a single modern kiln's brick production rate could match say 10 primitive pit kilns, and a higher number of items produced in a single batch may mean that overall less manpower is needed. tech -> savings in time and manpower)

Note: ironically, the process that most resemble this atm is wheat farming! (where wheat grows as "unmanned" and "delayed")

The projected behavioral influence will be: in land with little sand and more trees, a number of free kilns will have to be created to make bricks in batches (since the product is not immediately available). They require fuel but will be faster so the number of kilns required will be less than the sun-bake counterpart. On the other hand, desert maps will have less wood (once we get rid of palm) but has a lot of sand terrain, which will probably prompt large expanse of sun-baking fields, which bakes slower, and thus need a much larger number/area to achieve similar production as kilns.

Can be interesting to see how this will auto-influence the building types on the different maps. Normals can have more wood buildings and later stone when it is mined. For desert map (assume we tweak palm and stone.. though limestone could be possible), players may use mud bricks as the principle building type (but can pursue a different tech branch with higher quality mudbricks required for more advanced constructions, unlike the quality of wood and stone which usually remains unchanged through tech ages)

of course, more advanced bricks can only be baked in better kilns, but mud/adobe bricks are pretty durable building materials that can be used to create mega-structures....

from wiki:

Image
Sumerian ziggurats

Image
The Great Mosque of Djenné

oops.. kinda slipped from alternative production method to mudbrick promotion
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby JackPS9 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:29 pm

I think I may know how to do Unmanned actions, but I don't know if that is how you do them or not at this moment.
I'll look into Mud Bricks later on though cause I just want to get the action of all the Vanilla Towns stuff done first.
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby smithforge » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:39 pm

my planned process (for your reference and to cross-check with your method)

1) create the "idle" workshop (i.e. a pit kiln not in use)

2) an action to create the product will make citizen gather the materials and later <replaceCellItem> the "idle" workshop into the "processing" workshop. (e.g. "unused pit kiln" becomes "pit kiln baking bricks" or "pit kiln making charcoal") The first action ends here (and citizens are released from the job)

3) The "processing" workshop items will have a maxAge and will transform into the "finished" workshop item. (e.g. "pit kiln with finished bricks"). (Optional, if there are different gfx that can reflect the progress, can split up into a chain of stages each with a different gfx)

4) (automatable via splitting compound item method) Citizen will perform a finishing action that will go the the "finished" workshop, <createItem> the finished product item in hand, then <replcaeCellItem> the "finished" workshop back into "idle" workshop again.

Just for reference/discussion.
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby JackPS9 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:16 pm

smithforge wrote:my planned process (for your reference and to cross-check with your method)

1) create the "idle" workshop (i.e. a pit kiln not in use)

2) an action to create the product will make citizen gather the materials and later <replaceCellItem> the "idle" workshop into the "processing" workshop. (e.g. "unused pit kiln" becomes "pit kiln baking bricks" or "pit kiln making charcoal") The first action ends here (and citizens are released from the job)

3) The "processing" workshop items will have a maxAge and will transform into the "finished" workshop item. (e.g. "pit kiln with finished bricks"). (Optional, if there are different gfx that can reflect the progress, can split up into a chain of stages each with a different gfx)

4) (automatable via splitting compound item method) Citizen will perform a finishing action that will go the the "finished" workshop, <createItem> the finished product item in hand, then <replcaeCellItem> the "finished" workshop back into "idle" workshop again.

Just for reference/discussion.


I was thinking more zone it, (than have you build items on it like the workbench.) but it would be mud that is changed to Wet Mud Brick and have it age till it is Mud Brick.

Could use it for the flint age walls.

Well I got Mud Bricks in, currently using the Carpentry Zone right now till I make a new one for drying out the bricks.


Currently having a issue with the Mud Bricks, they wont be hauled to a stockpile.
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby JackPS9 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:29 pm

Just a update.
Flint age, is done. It is made just to be a slight delay.
Flint Age Items
    Mud Brick (Made with wood on the Carpentry Zone. Till I make a special zone for drying mud bricks)
    Mud Walls
    Basic Axe
    Woodenboard(4)
    Woodenboard(2)
    Woodenboard
Item to upgrade to Wood Age
Carpentry Bench the items required
Basic Axe
Woodenboard x3
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby YetiChow » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:33 am

smithforge wrote:my planned process (for your reference and to cross-check with your method)

1) create the "idle" workshop (i.e. a pit kiln not in use)

2) an action to create the product will make citizen gather the materials and later <replaceCellItem> the "idle" workshop into the "processing" workshop. (e.g. "unused pit kiln" becomes "pit kiln baking bricks" or "pit kiln making charcoal") The first action ends here (and citizens are released from the job)

3) The "processing" workshop items will have a maxAge and will transform into the "finished" workshop item. (e.g. "pit kiln with finished bricks"). (Optional, if there are different gfx that can reflect the progress, can split up into a chain of stages each with a different gfx)

4) (automatable via splitting compound item method) Citizen will perform a finishing action that will go the the "finished" workshop, <createItem> the finished product item in hand, then <replcaeCellItem> the "finished" workshop back into "idle" workshop again.

Just for reference/discussion.


You can cut out a couple of steps there - just have them make a wet mud brick and have it <MaxAge> into a dry one. Of course I realise that your method allows for cooler voodoo graphics with lit firepits and such, but I'm a big fan of simpler designs and some amateur modders might be put off by your complicated ideas. Again your idea is a great one and there's nothing wrong with a fully-formed process (far from it - that kind of stuff is a major draw for Towns as far as I'm concerned), but perhaps you could post simplified versions as well as you ingenious voodoo graphics solutions?
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Re: Towns Overhauled (Not Yet complete)

Postby smithforge » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:57 am

agreed that actual gameplay might need a few cutting out to simplify stuff (e.g. some simple materials which are only used for a single product can be simplified into using a more primary material and "acting" the processing step in action queue without actually producing the intermediate material).

The methods I put down is just for modder discussion. complexity of method does not necessarily relate with quality of gameplay experience.

Some reasons I have for the complicated method are because of the following possibilities. The method can be simplfied if some possible features are cut out:

1) I would like mudbricks to only be properly sun-baked on hot and dry tiles instead of just any where (so it should not just auto-maxage to completed bricks). I'm hoping that this creates a slightly different experience when playing on normal maps vs desert maps. e.g. the latter having less trees (and area suitable to grow tree) but a lot of hot sand tiles (I am thinking of making a difference in the terrain between sand near water and just hot, dry sand), will make sun-baking bricks more viable (and in fact, the primary building material due to wood being more precious). But on normal maps, wood is more abundant, so there is actually less need for mudbricks, and even if made, fuel-based kilns will have to be used since there is less hot-dry sand terrain but there is more wood for fuel.

2) I would like to influence the speed of making to reflect "tech". e.g. in terms of speed of producing: sun-baking < pit kilns < brick kilns. Also, the quantity produced per batch can increase with tech. e.g. sun-baking and pit kilns can only bake a few bricks at once. A proper brick kiln will be able to produce more bricks per batch (supposedly higher, better heat, structures that allows more dense packing of the processed items)

3) But my method is already partially simplified as I have cut out the "wet mud brick" equivalent (I was thinking action will take raw materials and either produce a sun-baking brick on a sunning zone, or a kiln baking brick item from a idle kiln), since it will be useless unless bakes and will probably just maxAge to nothing. The "full" design which takes in the wet mud brick will need a separate set of actions that will take that brick and properly put it somewhere to be baked, (or it will rot away after some time).

Not directly related: I am hoping that the "tech" could present a "natural bias" on the different map types (normal, desert, jungle, snow atm) which will indirectly influence the type of "culture" of the "town", (e.g. in desert, wood is scarce and should be reserved for tools and fuel, and arable area is small and restricted to near oasis, and thus mud-brick which is made of sand, will be primary. While on snow maps, ice and snow could potentially become a primary construction material like constructing igloos. ) It will also present a different difficulty in creating some buildings on certain map types. E.g. without cheating, creating a wooden-based palace in desert will take a much longer time than creating the exact same structure on normal map.


btw, this discussion is getting out of context as it is less related to Towns Overhauled mod.
I am posting some "tech" stuff just in case Jack could pick something he find that he can use out of it (to save unnecessary double work). If there is need for more discussion, should probably move to another thread.
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